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16 April 2011 @ 09:31 pm
On the Sasori vs Sakura / Chiyo fight  
This was posted by a Sasori fan on a forum I frequent. He really, really, REALLY hates Sakura and call her fans 'apologists'.

This has been bugging me a while now, I might add, because the Sasori fight was Sakura's greatest moment, and I've seen a lot of Sakura haters trying to downplay her role in the fight by saying she didn't do anything, Sasori let her and Chiyo win, she was useless as usual etc. WRONG. To say Sakura did nothing in that fight is downright ignorant.

This is my attempt at replying to the post.

"there is thing as well about some people claiming sakura defeated sasori because he said “as reward for killing me, i’m going to do something pointless”. "

"first of all, sasori said here: women like to do useless (pointless in some other translations) things, don’t they?"

Sasori couldn't understand Sakura's behaviour. He'd cut off all ties with his family in an attempt to become a human puppet, and saw people as little more than things to be used, including as puppets. Sasori was practically emotionless (but not completely); Sakura is a bundle of hormones and emotions. To Sasori, Sakura getting so worked up and angry over his attitude to Chiyo, and people generally, must have seemed very un-shinobi-like and alien, and indeed, pointless.

"after chiyo told him that she developed kishou tensei to revive sasori’s parents. and when he was about to give info about kabuto, he said, “before that i’ll do something pointless, as a reward for defeating me.” "
Sasori was clearly impressed, albeit grudgingly, that Sakura and Chiyo had made him pull out all the stops. Sasori himself was acknowledging Sakura's role in his defeat, which is more than can be said for some of his fans. I'm not a big Sasori fan, but I'll say this: he always acknowledges his opponents' abilities. He was impressed with Kankuro's bravery, and when they met again in the Ninja War arc, he even decided to pass his puppets on to Kankuro as a reward. Likewise, he acknowledged that Sakura and Chiyo were tougher opponents than he expected. He pulled out every jutsu he had to stop them, and they kept on going.

"like he would have done it if chiyo didn’t do something he considered pointless. "
What is that even supposed to mean?

"he didn’t even say sakra’s name, yet some are claiming “sasori credited sakra for defeating him!!!1!! it’s clear sakra defeated sasori!!1!” "
Sakura helped defeat Sasori. It was a team effort. Chiyo was ultimately the one who did the deed, but Sakura helped. Sakura was the one who smashed Hiruko; Sakura was the one who smashed the Third Kazekage puppet; Sakura helped battle Sasori's puppet army; Sakura punched away the blocks of iron sand; Sakura destroyed Sasori's puppet body; and finally, she took a sword for Chiyo, saving her life. Neither could have won without the other. That's why I love this fight so much. It was a team effort. Both women saved each other's lives. Both deserve credit.

"if the manga credited chiyo was the one who defeated him but he was giving the info to sakra as reward for defeating, does that mean sakra was the one who defeated him? he didn’t even mention sakra’s name. selective reading at its finest, bro. "
So because he didn't mention Sakura's name, that automatically negates her role in the fight. Riiight. Never mind that Sasori actually acknowledged her strength or anything.

"let us forget that:-

1. the manga named the fight chiyo vs. sasori "

Because ultimately, the fight was between them, due to Chiyo being Sasori's grandmother and the woman who taught him everything he knew. It was personal. It was also a battle between puppeteers, with Sakura being the only one present who wasn't a puppeteer, and acting as Chiyo's support. It was two people with essentially the same jutsu fighting each other, and said people were related, and both of them were products of the fucked-up society of Sunagakure. Kishimoto likes to write about bonds, and one of the bonds emphasised in this fight was the bond that Sasori and Chiyo had had before Sasori went crazy. Sasori did not care if Chiyo lived or died, but to Chiyo, he was still her grandson. And I fail to see how this negates Sakura's contribution in the fight.

"2. the manga credited chiyo as the one who defeated sasori "
She was the one who cast the final blow. She was the one who stabbed Sasori to death using the puppets of his parents. So of course she should be credited. Again, this does not, however, negate Sakura's contribution in the fight.

"3. let us forget as well that sakra herself congratulated chiyo for defeating sasori."
Damn right she did. Chiyo was amazing, and she saved Sakura's life. Like Zabuza and Haku, she may have only appeared in one arc, but the impact she had was tremendous. It was fantastic for me to see a strong female character who wasn't particularly young or pretty, but who was brave and intelligent and determined as hell, and how she bonded with a girl she barely knew. And what was Sakura supposed to do, take the glory for herself? That moment was one of the few moments of female bonding in the manga. It's a shame Kishimoto doesn't write more of it.

"4. let us forget as well that chiyo said “no, the one who really should have been defeated, was me” "
See my next point.

"5. “sasori saw through my last attack but somehow couldn’t dodge it, it gave him a small opening” "
Opinion is divided as to Sasori's final actions. Did he commit suicide? Why didn't he dodge? Did he want to die? Could he have killed Chiyo and Sakura if he had so desired, and why didn't he kill them? My personal take on this is that Sasori hesitated because he saw his mother and father coming towards him, and remembered his childhood, when as a little kid he'd been sitting happily sandwiched between the puppets. Sasori tried to become a human puppet, but like Zabuza before him, he could not eradicate his humanity.

I honestly cannot understand why a man who tried to turn himself into a living work of art, who believed true art should last forever, would suddenly give up and want to die. I don't get how on earth Sasori could be considered suicidal. And why would he let them win? For shits and giggles? When he'd pulled out iron sand and flying blades and poison gas and an army of puppets and G-d knows what else? Why would he suddenly decide, "You know what, sod this, I'll let these two bitches win just cos I felt like it"? It doesn't make sense to me at all. Why go through all that effort only to decide to throw the fight in the end?

"6. let us forget how many times chiyo saved sakra’s ass, maneuvered sakra and that she did 95% of the fight (i guess i don’t have to put the panels here )"
Yes, Chiyo did do a metric fuckton of work in that fight. But she didn't manoeuvre Sakura all the way through the fight, because eventually Sakura was able to read Sasori's movements, and Chiyo realised she didn't need to control Sakura anymore. I'd say it was more like 60% on Chiyo's part, approximately, if that. Sakura did do a fair bit herself. And as I stated below, Sakura also saved Chiyo's life by taking the sword for her.

"no, sakra apologists don’t overrate her, blow up her achievements whatsoever."
The guy who posted this is a Hinata fan who constantly goes on about what a shitty character Sakura is, how her fans suck for liking her, etc. So it's a bit rich, really, because being a serial basher who refuses to see anything good in a character is as bad as someone being an obsessive fan who claims their character of choice can do no wrong. While Sakura did not win the fight single-handedly, and negating Chiyo's role is wrong, there is no denying that Sakura did contribute to that fight, and saying so otherwise is not true and frankly, smacks of desperation.

Also? It's Sakura. Not 'Sakra'. Making a big deal of spelling a character's name wrong to show how much you hate her is kind of pathetic, really.

And before I forget, she's getting bashed in the current arc for healing people, even though in the last chapter she showed up in. One. Panel. The argument is that she's not healing named characters, only 'nameless fodders', therefore it doesn't count. And that healing people is hardly impressive to watch. Aaaargh.
Lighthearted Cynic: Persona - Chieslayerofgod on April 16th, 2011 10:36 pm (UTC)
"The guy who posted this is a Hinata fan who constantly goes on about what a shitty character Sakura is, how her fans suck for liking her, etc."

I sense pairing bias, to which I say get away from my pairing fandom.

It's funny this kinda excuse comes up now though, because Kishimoto's actually been really good lately about the female ninjas kicking ass. Konan gave Madara a run for his money, Hinata was holding her own with Neji against those Plant 34 clones, and just two chapters ago Ino played a pivotal role in taking down zombie Asuma.
Banwar Jesticles: Doraemonkankurette on April 17th, 2011 06:29 am (UTC)
I hope Sakura gets a decent fight, because she's well overdue one, frankly. And I absolutely love what Ino's been lately. It's good to see a woman leading a team and giving a man a verbal kick up the arse for a change, plus it wasn't all Shikamaru this time.
Lighthearted Cynicslayerofgod on April 17th, 2011 05:21 pm (UTC)
I agree. Sakura hasn't been involved in any action period for awhile. Not good for one of the main characters.
Banwar Jesticles: Franny catkankurette on April 18th, 2011 10:10 am (UTC)
Ever since the Uchiha vs Senju feud took over the manga, Sakura's been shoved to the side.
Maria: o noz!dropsofgleam on April 16th, 2011 11:34 pm (UTC)
... Are people STILL whining about THAT? Come on, first the "feminists" refuse to give the girls credit in the last manga arc when they've been kicking ass (Ino! Hinata! TENTEN!), and then we have the idiots reviving that zombie theme so they can wail on Sakura AGAIN.

And if that guy's a Hinata and NaruHina fan? GTFO my fandom corner. I love my Hinata and my NaruHina, but Sakura one of my favorite charas and shit like this gives us NaruHina/Hinata fans a fucking bad name. ;_;
edgiko on April 17th, 2011 02:10 am (UTC)
Wait, what on the refusing to credit the girls? Are they reading the same manga because I've been happy that Kishimoto has been including them.

(Also, icon love. <3)
Maria: As you know...dropsofgleam on April 17th, 2011 11:12 am (UTC)
Yeah. Apparently Ino's indy ploying and efforts aren't valid because she relayed on the Mind Switch Jutsu and was helping the fat idiot Chouji rather than bashing Zombiesuma across the face, Hinata defending Neji means she's still subservient to men, and Tenten using the Bashosen is not good enough for anyone. While lots of people think the way we do anf give the girls their credit, others continue whining and bitching. -.-

Banwar Jesticles: Depressedkankurette on April 17th, 2011 12:59 pm (UTC)
Frankly, I'm amazed Tenten is still standing after using that fan.

A lot of people are cheering for Hinata because of the Zetsus, but Ino's getting flak for not letting Chouji die. Because shitting all over her friends and everything Asuma taught her is just what Ino would do.
edgiko on April 17th, 2011 03:24 pm (UTC)
While I was typing my response, I realized I could make something that could warrant its' own post. I may just go and do that.

But AAARRRG because the Leaf apparently teaches you that women are not equal on the battlefield and that personal glory trumps your comrades.
Banwar Jesticles: Scary Hitsugayakankurette on April 17th, 2011 05:10 pm (UTC)
"You ladies should just stay in the kitchen and raise your children to become strong ninjas!" - Kurenai's dad.

At least Inoichi and Hiashi don't tell their daughters to stay in the kitchen, thank G-d.
edgiko on April 17th, 2011 05:49 pm (UTC)
Oh jeez, Kurenai's dad. He said essentially that while men and women were dying around him to protect the village. I get the whole "we must protect the next generation" bit, but how he said it was insulting to women.

I want to say his view was in the minority based on that women seemed to be viewed as capable as men when it comes to deployment of missions, they can become clan heirs, ect. I want to say. Can't be certain because the next couple of chapters may prove me wrong or something.

And yeah, as much as Hiashi was a dick, he never went (that I can recall) "Well Hinata is such a failure because she's a woman. I wish I had a son instead."
Maria: Plucky girldropsofgleam on April 17th, 2011 07:18 pm (UTC)
And yeah, as much as Hiashi was a dick, he never went (that I can recall) "Well Hinata is such a failure because she's a woman. I wish I had a son instead."

Not to mention the child of his's he preferred was, you know, a girl too. Hanabi, anyone?
Banwar Jesticles: Fantastic 9th Doctorkankurette on April 17th, 2011 08:30 pm (UTC)
Yeah, Hiashi was disappointed precisely because he wanted Hinata to be a ninja.
Doggiedoggiedynasty on April 17th, 2011 12:40 am (UTC)
Those Anti-Sakura bums tick me off. They should just become comic artists if they don't like what they read.

They're probably just "unimpressed" or upset that Sasori got beaten by a seal, expecting him to be "more powerful".
I-chan: YanMega// Action Panties!inuyatta on April 17th, 2011 02:03 am (UTC)
Hope this Hinata 'fan' isn't one of ours. X_X

Agh, goddammit, Sakura hasn't been featured much in the current arc, leave her the fuck alone when she is doing her job, fanbrats!
Banwar Jesticleskankurette on April 17th, 2011 06:28 am (UTC)
It's Naruku. Does he post often in the Hinata FC? I had to put him on ignore cos his constant Sakura hateboner was driving me nuts.
I-chan: Nothing can stop me nowinuyatta on April 17th, 2011 10:19 am (UTC)
I haven't seen him in there at least recently, so I don't know if he's even added. I know for damn sure he wouldn't get away with that shit with Gabz around though.
Banwar Jesticles: Pissed off Kankurokankurette on April 17th, 2011 12:57 pm (UTC)
He claims to be a fan of hers in the HoU, presumably because she isn't Sakura. He also made a thread targeting Anko specifically to piss Ayana off because she owns the Anti-Hinata FC. His Sakura bashing is OTT and creepy and reminds me way too much of Kaen Mikami's anti-Shikamaru crusade.

And I wish the Hinata fans accusing people who hate her of being mentally ill or having no tits would get off my side. I don't agree with the antis on a lot of things, but that's just stupid. And of course they HAVE to bash Sakura. Because we can't have one Hinata thread that doesn't mention how much Sakura sucks.
I-chan: *palm x forehead OTP*inuyatta on April 17th, 2011 04:03 pm (UTC)
Ugh. Sometimes I wish you had to pass a basic test just to be allowed on a public forum on the internet.

If Ayana is who I think she is, she's got some serious 'splaining to do about why she thinks it's ok to use the word 'rape victim' like an insult. O_o

That's a whole other can of worms though--directly antagonizing someone, even someone who makes outrageous claims, is petty and dumb.
Banwar Jesticles: Fantastic 9th Doctorkankurette on April 17th, 2011 05:07 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I hated that too. Even if she was just referring to hentai, it was totally in bad taste. Just because some idiots want to make Hinata into a submissive little waifu doesn't mean all her fans do, because, well, most of us know better. Although gloating about how you made a thread to piss someone off because OMG THEY HATE MY CHARACTER AND THE EVIL SUCKURA FANS THINK I ONLY MADE IT TO BASH SUCKURA AREN'T THEY STUPID is lame too. Not to mention that he kept bringing Sakra or Suckura or Pinky McBitchface or whatever the antis call her up in that thread himself. I just hope that when Hidan dies in the dub, KM / Brooke Logan is not going to start with her Shikamaru fan bashing too.

Then again, this is the forum that talks constantly about 'rapestomping' characters, so colour me surprised.
I-chan: Bayonetta://Ain't havin' this shit!inuyatta on April 17th, 2011 05:27 pm (UTC)
Pft, if we're gonna start labeling characters based on fanon hentai versions: Sakura is a nympho sex slave to anyone with dangly bits, Hinata is the ultimate subservient waifu, Naruto is the skeezy perv with absolutely no consideration or affection for any girl and Sasuke is the uber-evil rapist with worse dialogue than the previous three combined.

...there's a reason I stick to mostly FCs.
Banwar Jesticles: Happy Frannykankurette on April 17th, 2011 08:31 pm (UTC)
And everyone has giant great melons, even Sakura, and Kakashi is a paedo and Neji is a rapist.

I like the FCs. Shame anti-Sakura feeling always creeps in. ANH isn't bad, but I got into trouble in the Chouji FC for proposing an alliance with the Sakura FC, because one of the regulars hates Sakura. My reason was, we fans of bashed characters have to stick together.
I-chan: bad touch!inuyatta on April 18th, 2011 12:42 am (UTC)
YES, GOOD LORD. Tits be so big, you could fall forward and never faceplant. X_X

ANH is pretty much nothing but spam with occasional fuckitry, but Sakura gets an amazing amount of hate for a character that hasn't gotten to do a whole lot recently--but then, there are people who hate Tenten and then I just throw up my hands and declare it all being beyond reason.
Banwar Jesticles: Happy Frannykankurette on April 18th, 2011 06:50 am (UTC)
Sakura's barely been in the manga, and you think people would be happy, but no, they have to bitch about her for wearing a skirt, for not soloing an Edo, for healing 'nameless fodder' (because Gai is totally nameless fodder, amirite?) etc. I can agree with the anti-Chouji stuff recently to some extent, although I still think people are being way too harsh on him, but Sakura shows up in ONE panel and gets a bash thread. One. Panel. I know some of the Library people admit they will never be happy with anything she does, they don't want her to get development, and that the only thing she could do to make them happy is die.

As for Tenten, she frustrates me because Kishimoto could have done so much more, but bashing her? What has she done that deserves bashing?
I-chan: FUCK THIS SHIT XDinuyatta on April 18th, 2011 07:35 am (UTC)
Shit, they'd still be whining about how she died wastefully or some crap. It doesn't matter, if you are one of the rookie kunoichi, you are damned if you do; damned if you don't.

I feel that way about a lot of characters Kishi has introduced, but not one of them has done anything that deserves the level of vitriol the girls get.
Banwar Jesticleskankurette on April 18th, 2011 10:09 am (UTC)
The only male character who gets bashed as much as the kunoichi is Chouji. Sasuke's large fandom makes up for his hate.

And what a surprise, the SasuNaru fangirls are going wild at Sakura over the confession and whining about how she's such an evil abusive whore, treating Naruto like a punchbag and always hitting him EVEN THOUGH MOST OF THE TIME IT ONLY HAPPENS IN THE FUCKING ANIME, and how dare she play with his feelings and how it would be so much better for him if he ended up with Sasuke.
Lighthearted Cynic: Orihime - Don't Think Soslayerofgod on April 18th, 2011 11:14 am (UTC)
Wait. They hate Sakura for playing with his feelings, yet they want him to be with Sasuke>!

Am I missing something?
Banwar Jesticleskankurette on April 18th, 2011 11:56 am (UTC)
SasuNaru fan #1: "The difference between SasuNaru and SasuSaku as far as violence, to me, is that Sasuke actually shows regret when he hurts Naruto badly. He's never once shown remorse for hurting Sakura, with the one exception of his brief "Thank You"...before knocked her out and placed her on a bench. All the times post-timeskip that he's tried to kill her, he hasn't even hesitated. The violence in that pairing is pure violence, there's no other feelings really "underneath the underneath". Sasuke's reactions and facial expressions change completely when he is suddenly facing Naruto though (just look at the end of VotE or the end of the second reunion), which is why I don't count the violence in the two pairings as being exactly the same. (...) And NaruSaku...I never understood why Sakura always felt the need to punch Naruto across a field whenever he acted like...well, like himself. I didn't blame her for punching him when he was being a pervert, but 90% of the time she was punching him for just being near her or saying something stupid. And she punched hard. I don't think Naruto deserved that. That's one of the hundreds of reasons why I hate that pairing. The violence in that pairing is un-needed."

SasuNaru fan #2: "Narusaku I despise w/ a passion b/c of how sakura treated Naruto for these years and people think they're suppose to end up happily ever after, puhleeze! She plays w/ his emotions for her and lies to him. I mean, he would be her second choice and Naruto deserves much better than second choice. He deserves to be happy in the end and I honestly think he wouldn't be w/ sakura. (...) SOME Narusaku/sakura fans like to say that the whole beatings thing is just comedy and besides Naruto could easily dodge them if he wanted. It's no big deal. No big deal?! The bitch--excuse me, the girl is beating on him like he's a damn punching bag. Last time I checked, people don't beat up on ones they care about. And you sure as hell don't use their feelings for you against them. Ugh, I despise Narusaku so much b/c of such bull as that. (...) Horrible, ugly, boldfaced lying to Naruto. Poor thing. Some friend sakura is."
Lighthearted Cynic: Orihime - Don't Think Soslayerofgod on April 18th, 2011 12:17 pm (UTC)
Wow. I mean, I don't doubt that Sasuke feels *something* for betraying his friends, but there's no huge discrepency between how he reacts to Sakura and Naruto.

And yes, Sakura hitting him *is* comedy. Do not forget that you are watching a kid's show. Exaggerated violence is a motif of that, even over here. Just look at Warner Bros.
Banwar Jesticles: Doraemonkankurette on April 18th, 2011 12:53 pm (UTC)
People just WILL NOT GET IT. It is not meant to be abuse. We are talking about a girl who can break rocks. If she wanted to do Naruto damage, she could. Moreover, most of the hitting is not canon, as it only occurs in the anime. But of course the bashers don't see it that way.
I-chan: KnT//Pin fail - This is why we don't feeinuyatta on April 18th, 2011 08:22 pm (UTC)
See, and I don't get that--Chouji is adorable, and his struggles are believable. He's a gentle giant!

Agh. Don't even get me started on that lot. The 'Die for our ship' mentality is strong with that crowd.
Banwar Jesticles: Depressedkankurette on April 18th, 2011 08:55 pm (UTC)
See my reply to slayerofgod. I had to keep editing my comment because I was raging so hard.

What part of SAKURA'S SLAPPING OF NARUTO IS OVERDONE IN THE ANIME do these twits not understand? And also that SHE CAN BREAK ROCKS WITH HER FISTS AND COULD DO HIM SOME DAMAGE IF SHE SO DESIRED? And how come Sasuke gets away with trying to kill Naruto and making it clear he WILL kill Naruto if they meet again?

As for Chouji, I was pissed off with his behaviour - he could have gotten not only himself, but Ino and Shikamaru killed too - and I'm glad Chouza got angry and called him out. However, that doesn't mean he deserves to be killed, and I can understand why he acted the way he did, and at least he got out of his funk in the end. The sad thing is, even people in the Chouji FC won't stop complaining about him.

Edited at 2011-04-18 08:57 pm (UTC)
edgiko on April 17th, 2011 02:08 am (UTC)
..Okay, the fight is five years old. This guy needs to move on and shut up about it.

And, judging by this guy's comments, he was pissed that two women defeated Sasori. Because a woman couldn't possibly do that, especially that useless bitch Sakura. *eyeroll* I know that he didn't directly say it, but that's the vibe I get reading this.
Banwar Jesticles: Pissed off Kankurokankurette on April 18th, 2011 10:12 am (UTC)
I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Some people are bitter that a granny defeated an Akatsuki. Funny, I don't see anyone complaining about Hiruzen, Mifune or Danzo being old.

And yes, I can't believe people are still whining about it. I got over Pein beating Jiraiya, and he's one of my favourite characters.
(Deleted comment)
Maria: Whine bitch moandropsofgleam on April 17th, 2011 02:27 pm (UTC)
Look who's talking? How about Hinata? She is the OVERRATED one for not doing shit for most of time cuz Kishimoto wouldn't let her. How would he feel if I told HIM to blow up HINATA'S achievement whatsover?

... You know, Sakura hate isn't cool. But your Hinata bashing isn't cool either.
edgiko on April 17th, 2011 03:26 pm (UTC)
Woah. Hating on either women is not cool. I get the point you're trying to make but you can do that without bashing Hinata.
Banwar Jesticles: Franny Griffithskankurette on April 17th, 2011 05:03 pm (UTC)
Careful with that bashing, Eugene. I know it sucks to see her used as a stick to bash Sakura with, but that's not the character's fault, it's the idiot fanbrats' fault for trying to start a rivalry that doesn't exist.