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23 February 2011 @ 03:26 pm
Discussion post  
So there's this thing in various fandoms where people think that if a character is prone to trouble or messing up, their friends and loved ones need to Call Them Out instead of being concerned with their well-being. "Eirika just handed over the Sacred Stone to the Big Bad? She needs to be slapped, why is everyone asking if she's okay?! Rinoa got in trouble again? They should be yelling at her for being stupid, not happy that she's safe! Orihime should be beaten up for causing all the Hueco Mundo and Lust Arc BS! Sokka should have yelled at Aang for not keeping up his end of the Avatar bargain!"

Am I the only one who sees that and immediately thinks "dude, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS"?* That just because the heroine or hero fucks up, that doesn't automatically mean their loved ones need to scold them for it? Especially when the fans are like "WHY ARE YOU SO CONCERNED FOR THEIR WELL-BEING WHEN THEY JUST DID SOMETHING VERY WRONG"...God forbid this character's loved ones, y'know, LOVE THEM, right? Not to say that it's a bad thing if they do call them out on being reckless or not thinking things through, of course, but the way these fans go on about it you'd think it was Not Okay for them to, y'know, express love and care for the character as well. :P

It kinda reminds me of something else I ranted about a few years back: If a fan hates a character, no other character should be allowed to take time out of their Busy Schedule to comfort them or be nice to them. Which ties into the whole big ball of "if I hate a character, all the other characters must hate them too, no matter how much they love them in canon".

Thoughts?
 
 
Current Mood: opinionated/curious
 
 
 
Lighthearted Cynic: Claymore - Teresaslayerofgod on February 23rd, 2011 09:08 pm (UTC)
"Rinoa got in trouble again? They should be yelling at her for being stupid, not happy that she's safe!"

Funny thing about this. Both Squall and Quistis do criticize her for thinking with her heart and not her head, among other things. You can look it up, it's in the script.

Hell, the whole point of you needing to rescue Rinoa from Edea's stone monsters was to point out Rinoa's primary character flaw, and one that is true of many teenagers. She didn't listen to what her dad and the other party members said, and she put herself in grave danger. Her terrified reaction afterwords was meant to indicate the lesson was driven home.

But I digress.

Anyway, I find there are two types of people in your rant. The reasonable ones that just want the flaws of these characters acknowledged in some manner, and then there are the much more numerous immature people who hate these characters for whatever reason and want them defamed whenever possible. The trick is to differentiate the two.
your entitled savage bitch :D: Swan Rushsarajayechan on February 23rd, 2011 09:19 pm (UTC)
Anyway, I find there are two types of people in your rant. The reasonable ones that just want the flaws of these characters acknowledged in some manner, and then there are the much more numerous immature people who hate these characters for whatever reason and want them defamed whenever possible. The trick is to differentiate the two.

Unfortunately it can be hard at times, because the haters are loud enough to drown out the reasonable folks.
Closet fangirls, unite!chickenperson52 on February 23rd, 2011 09:17 pm (UTC)
This.

The problem with some people is that they can't differentiate between how they feel about the character and how everyone else feels about the character--including other characters. They impose their viewpoint onto everyone.

Yeah, you may think that every time someone fucks up they need to be chastised to the max, but the rest of the world is not your hive mind. If Character A screws up, their loved ones may be worried. They may be angry. They may be confused and upset and forgiving. Or all of the above.

your entitled savage bitch :D: Oscar/Rosaliesarajayechan on February 23rd, 2011 09:38 pm (UTC)
The problem with some people is that they can't differentiate between how they feel about the character and how everyone else feels about the character--including other characters. They impose their viewpoint onto everyone.

A common fan fallacy, and one of the most annoying at that. Fans tend to think too much in their own worlds, and as a result think their standards should be foisted onto that of their fandoms. I think we've all done it at some point, sadly. :/
Trying to avoid that bloody destiny: Zero Suit Samus Still Motionthenicochan on February 23rd, 2011 09:56 pm (UTC)
What's even worse is when people pull a "Die for our Ship" by imposing their opinions on other characters. A good example being the FF7 fandom. In fanfics, Tifa will complain about having to rescue Aerith from Shinra in the beginning of the story, and bitch at Cloud about how weak Aerith is...except in the actual canon, Tifa was worried sick about Aerith and was one of the first to say they needed to rescue her.
your entitled savage bitch :D: Zukaang carrysarajayechan on February 24th, 2011 01:19 am (UTC)
God, yes. I've actually read Zutara fics where Zuko hated Aang, one in which he smugly held Katara close when he saw Aang was nearby. Never mind that he and Aang are BFF after "The Firebending Masters" (discounting Zuko's unfair shots at Aang in TSR).
Banwar Jesticleskankurette on February 24th, 2011 03:51 pm (UTC)
And in Naruto fanon, Sakura scolds Hinata harshly for charging at Pein and nearly getting killed...but in canon, although she does tell Hinata that her behaviour was risky, she still heals her and IIRC is happy she's OK.
mean♥cookie: Ichi ♥mean_cookie on February 23rd, 2011 10:46 pm (UTC)
Orihime should be beaten up for causing all the Hueco Mundo and Lust Arc BS! *Facepalm*

Whenever I remember this comment I die a little bit inside. Because being a human being, bringing decisions in a pinch and caring about your friend's life you deserve to die or rather kill yourself.

It's just sad that character didn't deserve to live because it didn't fulfill expectations of the 'fans'.



your entitled savage bitch :Dsarajayechan on February 24th, 2011 07:28 am (UTC)
Seriously. D:
Banwar Jesticles: Happy Frannykankurette on February 24th, 2011 03:56 pm (UTC)
I actually think Orihime was as brave as hell in both those arcs. She'd been punished enough. G-d forbid Ichigo and co actually be happy that she's still alive or anything.
★☆→ t-t-touchin' on my ✖shotglass on February 24th, 2011 01:08 am (UTC)
For real. We, as outsiders to the story, can say "Oh my god, what she did was so stupid! Someone should call her out/they shouldn't be comforting her once consequences have happened and it's over!" but would their friends really do that? Probably not, because most friend dynamics don't work that way. I dunno - if my friends called me out on every single stupid thing I did, never comforted me for things that were bad that happened (even if I may have had a hand to play in it), overall treated me like dirt for not being a Perfect Being? I wouldn't be friends with them for long. The reverse is true of them.
your entitled savage bitch :Dsarajayechan on February 24th, 2011 07:28 am (UTC)
I dunno - if my friends called me out on every single stupid thing I did, never comforted me for things that were bad that happened (even if I may have had a hand to play in it), overall treated me like dirt for not being a Perfect Being? I wouldn't be friends with them for long. The reverse is true of them.

Word. It makes me wonder about people who think that way...just like people who berate you for not apologizing enough during arguments (that whole "tell me what you did wrong and why you're sorry and why what you did was very bad and stupid" business), where you wonder what kind of childhoods they had. Do people who think characters should be scolded instead of cared for have friends who treat THEM like that?

...nah, probably not. I'm probably reading too much into things again, lol.
Bird: Black Jack&Pinoko; those colourful daysinkedfeathers on February 24th, 2011 02:24 pm (UTC)
I would not want to be friends with this sort of people, I think.

Besides, a character could scold AND still love the character who messed things up and be happy they're nice and safe.
Birdinkedfeathers on February 24th, 2011 02:24 pm (UTC)
Also, I love your Orihime icon.

Those historical figure inspired calendar pictures were gorgeous.
Banwar Jesticles: Franny with melodicakankurette on February 24th, 2011 03:47 pm (UTC)
Na Roo Toe examples:
1) I dunno if Hinata and Sakura supposedly hating each other because they're rivals for Naruto's cock counts, but I do know some people seem to think Sakura deserves a good beating from Naruto for being such a shitty friend to him. Even though she does genuinely care for him as a mate and Naruto's the most forgiving person in Konoha. If he can forgive Sasuke for everything he's done, he's not exactly going to go "SAKURA YOU EVIL BITCH TAKE THAT!" And he did call her out over the fake confession. He also saved her from Sasuke. So much for him hating her and dumping her arse for Hinata.

2) "Shikamaru should dump those useless meat shields, he's too good for them." Um, no. Chouji is his best friend. He's also the only person on Team 10 who is good at taijutsu, he's a good support ninja and the physically strongest. And both boys care about Ino - Shikamaru even said he'd avenge her death if she was killed - and as anyone who's read the latest chapter will know, she's a necessary part of the team, a tracker and a spy, and she's good at kicking Chouji and Shikamaru up the arse Hell, she saved Shikamaru. So much for her being a useless meat shield. Shikamaru would never get rid of either of them.

Edited at 2011-02-24 04:09 pm (UTC)
Bizarro Lordakai_senshi on February 24th, 2011 09:35 pm (UTC)
I agree with you as long as the other character would be IC not to bitchslap the other one.

But yeah, I hate people projecting their dislike (or their like, for that matter) onto other characters when it'd make them ridiculously OOC.
Joe ElmoreLLSmoothJ on February 25th, 2011 06:08 am (UTC)
The fandumb could care less about how anyone would rationally react (Let alone when they don't know the full story/selfishly projecting their opinions and act as if they're fact). All they care about is for characters acting like they're own personal avatar especially if it's towards a character they see as a personal threat they hate. At the end of the day, it's all about them. Screw rationality!
(Deleted comment)
your entitled savage bitch :D: Machissarajayechan on March 2nd, 2011 02:58 am (UTC)
I agree for the most part. When it comes to the big screw ups, it's kind of obvious that it is what it is: A big screw up. You're not supposed to have characters chastise another character in a highly intense situation. That wouldn't be real. If it's a grey area character committing the act, then he/she is living up to the name. If it's a designated hero committing a screw up, it's most likely because the situation was stressful. And the heroes just want to get the hell out of there and move on, or ask if the hero's okay because they're worried for them.

Big word to that. Sometimes slapping a hero who just did something stupid will just make things WORSE.

Well, her going with Ulquiorra meant the other characters had to risk their necks to go rescue her, and Ichigo would be thinking about her and not Rukia. And then Hime had the audacity to scream Ichigo's name!!! TEH HORRORS!!

Totally agreed with that last part. Kicking someone in the shins or insulting them is worlds away from handing over a MacGuffin that the heroine honestly thinks will save her friend.

And it makes total sense. :D
Banwar Jesticles: Chekankurette on March 2nd, 2011 01:12 pm (UTC)
And Rukia herself would be thinking about Orihime.
absolutecorrupt: memoryabsolutecorrupt on March 9th, 2011 10:57 pm (UTC)
Rinoa was also the same person who broke her friends out of jail, but you don't hear fans bitching about how they got there in the first place. You don't hear anyone say, "Squall should have dodged that giant ice spear! What a dumbass!" (Squall does get bashed, but for completely different reasons--too angsty, emo kid, being in Not Seven, just like Tidus and Vaan are bashed) The other instances where Rinoa needed to be saved weren't really her fault, though. She was a sorceress, and they needed a successor.

Tea also gets bashed (when does she not?!) for this reason--damsel in distress, running in the middle of an Epic Duel to make a friendship announcement, and that's why she deserves Kaibonic robot torture and to have all her friends WHO AREN'T REALLY HER FRIENDS BECAUSE SHE'S JUST THERE FOR DECORATION abandon her. If I had a nickel for every fanfic where Yugi/Atem or anyone else never really liked her in the first place, regardless of their relationship in canon, I'd buy out both Kaiba's and Pegasus's companies. Mokuba also gets bashed for this, when they say that Seto never really liked him and he's just a waste of time. But every time Mokuba needs to be saved, it shows that Kaiba really does have a heart.

I think that while most people are sick of Damsels in Distress, instead of realizing that this is a problem and learning how to want women and children characters to be more competent, they use the characters as a scapegoat.